Tuesday, November 17, 2009
Weeks 8 and 9
Time is fleeting, and I want to open up some space for discussing the new issues we have been investigating, so I'll make it brief. In light of the challenges posed by Carol Christ and Mary Daly, do you think that the foundations of Judaism and Christianity are inherently biased against women? Or perhaps even misogynist? Or do Christ and Daly misunderstand something essential about God and the scriptures? Do women need "the goddess"? A different concept of God? A return to tradition?
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Judaism and Christianity flourished in a very different time when women were looked at in a very different way. Just like America before the first women's rights movement, women did not have the rights we do today. More than that they were not respected in the same way we are today. The Bible is biased against women. The question is whether that was done consciously to keep women below men, or if it was done because it was a given that men were in charge.
ReplyDeleteThat being said a lot of things have changed and women like Christ and Daly speak to women who do not find solice in the male dominated Bible. They are not alone but they are not the only way. Christ and Daly saying that all women should worship the goddess is like Christians saying that all people should worship God. I believe there are women who would find it helpful to have a powerful woman to worship or look up to. I do not know enough about the Bible to really discuss it but from what I know the Bible does not include women more than how they interact with men. And women's lives are not just based on men.
Christ and Daly do make a solid argument against Christianity and Judaism but like Gretchen said they force the idea that women should worship a goddess, just as Christianity and Judaism push the idea that God is the almighty. To me, that is just as ridiculous. Women should practice whatever they like. I feel like the Bible did not intend to push the male figure as the leader and Christ and Daly might have misinterpreted some of the gospels and scriptures, manipulating it to seem like woman were discredited and looked down upon. The story of Adam and Eve could have been read in two different ways. The radical feminist idea that Eve got the blame can be one way to approach the whole ordeal or someone can look at it as if Eve was the stronger one because she had the curiosity and will to question God's authority. As in the story of Job it is implied that Job's questioning of God builds a stronger relationship with God. When Job questioned God, God was not angry with him but respected him for questioning God’s power. So Eve can be thought of as superior to Adam because she had the balls to question God.
ReplyDeleteI think that Daly and Christ make some valid points that religion Judaism and Christianity are inherently biased against women. I agree with Gretchen in that the bible is biased against women but I don’t think that this was intentionally done. I feel that they didn’t purposely exclude women, but as Gretchen noted, at the time women didn’t have the amount of respect that they do today. However I do not agree with Daly’s attacks on Christian myths or Christ’s argument. I feel that they are misunderstanding something essential about God and the scriptures. As we discussed in class, one can argue that we are supposed to have a personal relationship with God. I don’t think that women need the goddess or any different concept of God in order to have that personal relationship. God is portrayed as a man, but I don’t feel that that takes away from women’s power or strength at all.
ReplyDeleteI think Christianity and Judaism play a big part in feminist bias. The whole thing goes back to what we were talking about in class with Eve. Why should Eve suffer the most for what Adam has also committed. It puts the guilt on women from the beginning of time. Ever since that moment that she told Adam to eat the apple, women have been seen as seducers and the ones who get man into trouble.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jennifer and also do not agree with Daly or her thoughts on Christian ideas. She is not looking at the whole idea and relationship God has with his people. I also don't think women need a goddess. They have had a God or not a God for thousands of years and have been doing fine with that one God. The goddess is just women trying to get in touch with their feminist side.
I agree with Victoria. To insist that women should worship Goddesses instead is essentially imposing a limit on women as well. Also,the feminist movements have been fairly recent, and I wonder if we can analyse the Scripture based on such modern perspectives.
ReplyDeleteI had problems comprehending Christ and Daly's arguments, simply because their intentions to provoke have also made their language overwhelmingly critical. On second thought, however, Christ and Daly (perhaps rightfully) point out that pronouns in the Bible such as "Father", "Son" etc. are patriarchal, or even overtly misogynist. Interestingly in my Mysticism class today we talked about the inadequacy of language to name the monotheistic God. I'm wondering what would be a better alternative to replace these woefully inadequate terms in the Bible? Perhaps these feminists are also pointing us towards a much more apophatic tradition? Just a random thought.
The other day in class I brought up the fact that man had nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteI got the idea from Sojourner Truth, both an equal rights activist and a womans rights activist. She gave this speech. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vr_vKsk_h8
I feel rather strongly on the idea of God as a Man. I have always accepted that and never felt like his traditionally assigned gender got in the way of a personal relationship with him. Christ and Daly create such radical and far fetched perversions of the scriptures , for me personally I feel like they are pushing people away. Why worship a Goddess? Why is that any better? A God is a God, it is still worship. I just think they are missing the entire point of God's love and salvation. They are so wrapped up in pitying themselves and women's "inequality" that they refuse to accept that maybe some women, like myself, want to worship God , the God from the bible and not some group of Goddesses that didn't sacrifice themselves for our redemption. So no, I don't think I need a Goddess, maybe some women feel that they do. The women that do, like Christ and Daly I don't feel like they would be worshiping her out of real want of a female figure to worship but more like a jab at tradition or a way to stick it to men and society. Christ and Daly seem so angry to me and that's not what religion is supposed to be about. Specially not religious faith in God and Jesus... I think they're confused and bitter women, whom I could never relate to.
ReplyDeleteThe bible was written by men from a different time. So it is understandable that much of the text can be seen as being written by misogynists. Personally after writing a feminist paper about Disney Princess films, the Bible is the perfect target for every feminists attack. From Eve being the first eater of the fruit of knowledge to Jesus being the son of God there being no mention of a daughter of God. The list can go on forever. I respect these women for announcing their believes, as it is their right to. But I think that they should be open to the idea that maybe women don't mind worshiping a male God. As for me, the idea of worshiping a Goddess doesn't seem like a bad idea. But that doesn't mean I'm going to tear out pages of the bible and rewrite it in a women's point of view, although that may be the next book these two women may write together some day.
ReplyDeleteI think Christ and Daley are writing to a specific audience--an audience that has felt oppressed by Christianity but has never been able to express it through words. An audience who has always felt this way but was not given the chance to speak their mind. While I think, to a certain extent, they are making judgements for all women, I still think they are speaking to a certain audience, attempting to awaken their "silent majority" base. I actually admire their contributions because you don't see this kind of stuff very often. I never heard of Christ, Daley, or the feminist critique of the Bible until this class. I think this is why I am so fascinated with particular topic in class. It's nice to be exposed to a completely new perspective and experience, however radical or offensive one might find it. For example, I think Daley's arguments about the origin of "Trivia" and other goddess history is fascinating and at times hard to deny. It's funny how time and again, when an individual edges nearer and nearer to an inconvenient truth, society gives off a viceral reaction! I'm not arguing for or against Christ or Daley's positions. What is most interesting to me is the debate this issue is starting--in this classroom and classrooms across the country and world. Their brilliance is not in their theory or prose; but in their subject matter--Christianity. By incorperating Christianity into their broader discussion on feminism, they are reaching a potential global audience of 2.1 billion people. Whether they reach all of them is not what's important. What's important is that they have planted the seeds. From there, the discussion ensues. It has even reached our classroom. Where will it travel next?
ReplyDeleteThrough my Jewish discourse, I do no believe that Judaism is inherently biased against women, whatsoever. It has more to do with the ways in which each gender was created which entails what is necessary for either to be close to G-d.
ReplyDeleteFor Jews, the first six days of the week are for working, getting things accomplished, running around, hustle-bustle, etc - many of which are masculine attributed roles/qualities. On the seventh day, the Sabbath, the first time in the Hebrew Bible where something is deemed Holy, there are feminine associations. It is the welcoming of the Sabbath Queen, or Bride. It is a time for rest, reflection, family and being the closest with G-d.
This distinction, along with others puts women in an honored and, I argue, a superior position.
The mark of the covenant made with G-d in Judaism is male circumcision. It has multiple purposes, one of which is to remind men of the covenant, and as Shmuley Boteach states "the sign of circumcision embedded on man's reproductive organ is a symbol to him that the essence of holiness is the knowledge of when to refrain." If men need a physical reminder of how to behave, and women do not, which gender is really in an inferior position?
In Judaism, women do not have the same obligations as men do, and I believe it is a modern notion that the separation in prayer, the modest attire, strict coital laws in marriage, etc are viewed as oppressive from those who don't understand the joy that comes from leading a life close to G-d, and choosing to honor the commandments.
I think those that argue for strict gender equality, particularly in a religious context miss the essential, and beautiful differences between men and women. There are no "gods" and "goddesses" that need to be emulated because G-d has provided the necessary tools.
I think Judaism hasn't missed the boat at all, and it is only those that do not understand the foundational ideas, and differences between sexes that aid men and women in coming closer to G-d, are quick to believe that Judaism has a bias against women.
The language in the old and new testaments may not have been meant to be inherently female biased but it sure reads that way. Its always God the father this and son of God that. I'm willing to chalk the patriarchal language up to the culure and society in which the bible was written but if both Christianity and Judaism are really not inherently anti-woman then I dont think both of these religons would mind changing some of the masculine pronouns to feminine pronouns or even neutral pronouns as an act of good faith(they could just slip a few she's in the bible and see if the sun rises the next day). I think a little retroactivity would go along way. If Christianity (this is directed more towards Catholocism)can change which sins are mortal and which sins are just the run of the mill than why not make a few changes in pronouns? (An example of this switching of sins would be eating meat on fridays, this used to be a sin punishable by an eternity in hell and now its a light penance). Christ and Daly both raise good arguments and questions that must atleast be considered. I feel the role of language plays a major part in the way we percieve and act so with god always being referred to as he, or father in the bible of course the idea of god will take the shape language has given it/she/he.
ReplyDeleteWhen considering whether or not the old and new testaments are biased against women people really do need to remember the time period that it was written, a period when women were not considered equal to men. Then also taking into account that it may be Gods word, but it was written by men of that period and I am not saying that they were trying to keep women beneath men but that is simply the culture they lived in. Also I do think that for some women the goddess figure even just as a symbol of a women’s different possibilities may help some women to connect to some form of a god or higher being.
ReplyDeleteI had never given much thought to the questions raised by Daly and Christ; I am usually quickly turned off by feminists and their approaches. While that held mostly true in this case, I did find myself giving their issues a second thought. Why is God unquestionably a man? When I think back to when I was younger and started to become aware of the idea of God, he automatically took a male form within my mind. And I was without any sort of religious upbringing, so where did that notion come from? It's interesting to think about and I believe it does have many implications for our society and accurately reflects the roles of men and women within it.
ReplyDeleteWhile I find Christ and Daly's works interesting, I don't find them practical. I don't think the majority of people even share their despair at a male-dominated religion, and therefore would find the feminists' writing of little use or relevance. Additionally, as we saw in our class discussion, most of us were put off by their seemingly radical ideas and the language they used to discuss them.
I get the feeling that these women are, first and foremost, feminists, which then colors their outlook on all other facets of life and eventually led to their questioning of religion. I guess that's why I have trouble embracing their ideas. I could definitely be wrong but I feel like religion was just the next issue on their agenda.
I had never given much thought to the issues Daly and Christ discuss; I am usually turned off by feminists and their approaches. While that remained largely true in this case, I did find myself giving their ideas a second thought. Why is God unquestionably a man? I began thinking back to when I was younger and first became aware of the idea of God. He automatically took a male form within my mind and I did not have a religious upbringing so where did that notion come from? It is interesting to think about and I do believe it has implications for our society and accurately reflects the roles of men and women within it.
ReplyDeleteWhile I find Christ and Daly's essays interesting, I do not find them practical. I don't believe many people even share their despair at a male-dominated religion and would therefore find their works irrelevant or of little use. Additionally, we saw in our class discussion, how many of us were put off by their seemingly radical ideas and the language they used to discuss them.
I think that Christ and Daly are, first and foremost, feminists and that this colors their perspectives on every other facet of life and eventually led to their questioning of religion. This is why I have a hard time embracing their ideas. I definitely could be wrong but I feel as if religion was just another issue on their agendas.
Sorry, you can delete the second post. I thought my first one didn't go through.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Diana said. Overall, especially with Daly, I feel like the scriptures are twisted out of context and looked at only to find every possible accusation that can be made. However, if the same passages are looked at with an honest attempt to see the truth and if the Bible really is sexist, I think the reader will find that the scriiptures are actually accepting of everyone, and lift women up from how they were treated and their status in that time period. Christ is also confined, but by her personal experiences. She fails to look beyond imperfect people to see God and his word for what he meant it to be. It isn't fair to God to judge him by the people who believe in him, simply because they are not perfect and God is. Deciding if God and the Bible is sexist involves getting to know him personally, and objectively reading his word, not judging him based on personal experiences related to Christianity as different people may misrepresent it.
ReplyDeleteFeminism can come across as irritating and irrational. As if complaining about issues by using your gender as an excuse will solve anything. Christ and Daly are obviously entitled to their opinions but at times they can be hard to follow and demeaning.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nancy in that the Bible was never meant to be a sexist documentation of Jesus' life. It is a depiction of which there are lessons embedded. Christ is very much consumed by her own "bad" experiences.
Like Christina, sometimes I do think that feminist discourse is irrational and annoying. Without wanting to generalise, feminism is also very rarely heard of and discussed about in my fairly traditional Asian upbringing. Very recently, however, a friend pointed out the distinction between “explicit feminist” and “implicit feminist”. He told me that I am a feminist (no matter how much I try to deny) as long as I don’t think women should just stay home, give birth, and do household chores. Maybe? Maybe most of us would like to believe that we have outgrown feminism, but maybe this issue remains pressing today.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I believe that it is important to constantly keep in mind the dangers of using feminism as an antagonistic tool to initiate further social unrest and gender inequality. Turning against the opposite gender, or putting the pressure towards conformity upon women, I think, will not in anyway help to achieve gender equality.
It is an interesting difficulty to try and define "feminism." I believe strongly in human rights, and equality for all people, which includes equality between men and women. I also believe strongly in women's presence in the workplace, using any and every one of their gifts and talents as much as men. I would fight passionately against any one or thing getting in the way of a woman reaching her potential or unfair treatment in her job. Does this make me a feminist, and if so is that a bad thing? I would consider myself a feminist because i believe in women's strength and empowerment. This is not a bad thing and the title "feminist" doesn't have to be a bad one. I think that the extremists are the feminists who people hear speaking their mind in radical ways, and this causes people to attribute the term feminist to only such outrageous ideologies.
ReplyDeleteI feel that the comments made by Christ and Daley concerning the practice of family purtiy laws in Judaism to be extremely off and even offensive! She makes it seem like it's wrong and sexist but really it's actually benefiting the women and the marriage as a whole. Absence makes the heart grow founder.
ReplyDeleteI also agree strongly with Cailin. She's correct that in Judaism, men and women have different roles which doesn't make things sexist it makes things different and holy. Many people view the separation wall at Orthodox shuls as sexist but really it's benefiting the man and the women because they are able to get closer to Hashem with out the distractions of the opposite sex.
ReplyDeleteI believe its all how you view things in life.When a women has confidence in herself people tend to respect her,given the fact that she has self respect. The bible is a guideline based on moral laws,wether or not god is male ,or female its in our benefit to follow them. The whole concept of stressing the need for the goddess seems unnecessary to me.If we continue reading into every detail,we will never be fully content. The only way to reach our ultimate joy,is proving ourselves!
ReplyDeleteI believe strongly in what Jamie has stated about family purity. The fact that it enhances the marriage is definitely a plus. Health is another benefit in this matter. Doctors claim that the risks of retaining cervical cancer, are much lower in a women who abstains from intercourse during that time of the month, and the seven days following.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the term feminism has gotten a bad reputation. Many of the feminists that we have heard of and heard from are radical and hard to relate to. This can certainly be off-putting. However, like a few other people said, to be a feminist is very much just the empowerment of women and believing that women and men are equal. A feminist is not someone who pities herself and uses her gender to complain about things. She(or he) is someone who believes that perhaps gender is not something that should define one's role in the world and that women should not be thought of as lesser than men.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I would like to comment on the fact that Christ and Daly are not saying that Christians, or even anyone who believes in God, should change their view of God into a goddess. They are simply suggesting that there is another way to look at it. Maybe you do prefer to view God as masculine, as a protecting father, but maybe you can't connect to that. Christ especially is saying that women in particular may have an easier time having a relationship with God if we viewed God as feminine or even just with a feminine side. She wants people to understand that God does not have to be a protective father, but can be a nurturing mother as well. Personally, this is something I would like to explore further within my own spiritual convictions. As a woman, or even as a human being, a feminine God, a mothering Goddess, is a being that seems much more present. The immanence of God rather than the transendence of God is a concept that I feel can make my relationship with God much stronger and easier to understand and relate to. Also, I completely get that some people may be able to completely relate to and have an excellent relationship with a father God. This is simply a matter of individual relationships with God.
Angela, I agree with your comments. I have a slight issue with what your friend said about how we're all feminists as long as we believe women should do more than stay home and take care of the kids. I think if we truly want to eradicate the unjust differences between the sexes, we cannot act as if a woman making a living for herself is abnormal or remarkable. Because, today, it's really not. So by calling oneself a feminist when simply acknowledging that a woman's role ought to be much more than doing household chores, I think it almost erases progress we've made and produces further unrest. Women are capable of doing much more than washing dishes and ironing shirts, and everyone knows this, so why continue to make a big deal about it?
ReplyDeleteTo Hannah- I admire your open-mindedness and willingness to reassess your beliefs. But I'm wondering, if God does exist, does that imply he (or she) has one specific gender? And if so, how do you justify being able to choose what gender he/she is for yourself?
I try not to assign a gender to God because I believe that God is beyond gender (to me, God is a being that transcends all human constructs and cannot possibly be described by human qualities). However, it's pretty difficult not to assign a gender to God, especially when all of the imagery (usually male-centered imagery) is thrown in your face from an early age. Maybe rather than assigning one gender to God, it might work to view God as having a feminine and a masculine side. If I did decide to choose a gender for God, I don't know that I could justify it. If God were female, this might make her more relatable and present to me, but if God were male, he might be more protective and fatherly (whatever that means). I think that I would want all of the qualities attributed to both male and female entities in my God, despite those qualities being human-constructed and despite the inability to describe an all-powerful being in human terms.
ReplyDeleteI think that the biased against women is rooted in the early stages of christianity. Why weren't any of Christ's twelve disciples women? I think that, even though women were respected in biblical times, they were not looked at as equal to men or as able as men.
ReplyDeleteBoth Christ and Daly succeed in challenging their audiences beliefs on religion. Their writing style may come across as hostile or aggressive but the goal of these writings are to get people to think critically about womens role in religion or lack thereof. Christ and Daly's style may come across as confrontational but they treat their audience like adults through proposing strong viewpoints and assuming that the audience can handle these "radica" ideas. Along with examining womens role in the major monotheistic religions, Christ and Daly seek to confront these accepted "truths" about religion and attempts to illustrate that these "truths" have only come about because of certain male dominated organizations. And out of sight out of mind.
ReplyDeleteI think Peter makes a good point, although i disagree with christ and Daly completely , I won't deny that they are definitely stirring things up. Their concepts are certainly being noticed, and often times i'm sure they are also being accepted. I do appreciate that they are treat their audience like adults with their vocabulary and to the point type argument , but because their ideas are so out there, it almost sounds like scary bed time stories or something. Christians as cannibals and vampires and things, yes its bizarre, but more than that, its not really an adult concept. All of this in my opinion of course. But certainly there are some things about these do women that are redeeming, and I can respect their studies and profession, and acknowledge them as successful women who are trying to good things for other women around the world. I'm not completely opposed to their cause, just perhaps it could be less extreme.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with Christ and Daily - it does seem that most religions cater to a male dominated society. I find it completely reasonable to think that some females would have a hard time relating to a subject that is the opposite of them or belittles them in some way. For example , the constant acknowledgement of God in the masculine form or creation stores that blame the world's damnation on a female. At the same time , I think we need to reflect on who actually wrote the holy texts of the world and accept the possibility that they could have been altered to please a male oriented society. However , at the times the authors' arguments seem aimed at the most popular religions of the world , almost as if they have a personal vendetta against them. I believe that the tone taken and the sometimes disrespectful presentation of other religions turns people away from their arguments.
ReplyDelete* Do I think that women need to reclaim God or find a feminine Goddess in order to feel connected to a higher power. I think it would help those women who have trouble relating to a masculine god . However , I'm not sure it can be done. The main religions that the authors attack are already established and I'm not sure that a new religion based on the idea of goddesses would survive in this society.
If the way they posed their arguments weren't so extreme do you think they would get so much attention? Would they be noticed at all? Maybe they have to pose their arguments in an extreme sounding way so that people get worked up about what they are saying and really pay attention.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that a new religion would need to be created or entirely new scripture would have to be written in order for women to reclaim the goddess. Rather women (and men) being able to see the feminine side through simply rethinking scripture and their views about God and religion might help them have a better relationship with God and reclaim the Goddess.
In my opinion, one of the problems with Christ's idea about the goddess is it seems to contradict the idea of God and why people need a God to begin with. When Christ discusses the godessess' representation of strength within women and their recognition of their own power, it doesn't seem this sort of self discovery has anything to do with the worshiping of a god. If a person realizes something about themselves (like self worth) and that realization is not from religion, why is a symbol of this necessary? I feel like that lessens the importance of the actual discovery and pushes the focus to something entirely different.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Bella that sometimes Christ's most apparent motive isnt at all accurate. She poses the idea of a goddess like concept, but her push for a feministic lifestyle often covers her intended messages.
ReplyDeleteI think Christ and Daly are also criticizing how society has interpreted the Bible. Nancy said it isn't fair of them to judge God by the people who believe in him. I think that is exactly what Christ and Daly are criticizing. Maybe God and Jesus did not mean to be sexist but the Bible's language can be used by people to justify their sexist actions. The main example is men automatically being considered the head of the households because that's how it is in the Bible. Perhaps we shouldn't be criticizing the Bible but instead we should be looking at how it is interpreted and how that can be changed.
ReplyDeleteI really like what Hannah had to say before. She's right, many people have this stereotype of what a feminist is, and most of the time there wrong.
ReplyDeleteI honestly dont think God is a man or a woman, a think it is just simply a higher power. It is interesting to think about what our world would be like if god had created a human in "his image" as a woman. What if jesus was a woman? I'd probably still be a Christian.